Haven't adults learned anything from Footloose or Dirty Dancing?

The history of parents taking away 'questionable' music shows that it only feeds the fire.

I'd much rather my kids listen to Bikini Kill than Miley Cyrus.

If you deny your children something they're curious about it will only manifest itself in a more detrimental way. When are the parents of our country's children going to wake up and smell the damn coffee?

IGshr*e

your crucial error was assuming that FOX news and their affilates are in any way practicing journalism.

i find it amusing that someone would send their kid to a rock and roll camp and then actually be surprised that it's not squeaky clean.

although on the same token, isn't bikini kill more punk? it is "rock" camp and not "punk" camp, right? ;)

I would be interested in hearing from parents on this issue. It is easy to take the, "I won't keep anything from my child" line when one does not have children. Here is how it works when you have children: the libertine approach may be a defensible parenting tact, but it is supposed to be up to the parent to decide whether they want their kids to listen to Bikini Kill, etc., not a camp counselor or schools or a random stranger. That's the point that is often missed by people who take the reflexive, "What's the big deal?" line on these types of stories. It may or may not be a big deal, but that is not the debate. The debate is whether the parent--not the camp or anyone else who thinks they know what is good for someone else's child--is supposed to decide. I vote parent.

i'm embarrassed for all involved parties.

Re: Rock Parent

But it was a ROCK camp. So, if you don't want your children to listen to semi-offensive punk rock don't send them to a music camp taught my indie and punk-rockers themselves. DUh.

IGshr*e

@Rock Parent

While I totally agree with you in principal that parents should be able to decide what a child listens to, that's an ideal that I'm not sure can be lived up to.

The only way that could be practically enforceable would be if the camp made a list of ALL the music that would be taught and listened to in the camp and then ENFORCED a ban on any music not on that list. Really?

(And these kids probably have internet access at the camp, so controlling what the listen to would be next to impossible).

That sounds like the exact opposite of what rock is supposed to be about.

@Rock Parent, I don't mean to be too contentious with you - I get where you're coming from.

Actually, I think the problem is that there's a lot missing to this story. What else did the campers listen to? What's the overall environment like? Does the camp teach values of mindless rebellion and obscenity or rock as an expression of social consciousness? Are other parents complaining? Is there pattern here or is this a one-off case? Did the kid get the cassette from the camp staff or from another kid?

That one kid brought home one cassette that one parent didn't like really doesn't tell us anything.

Rock Parent, I would too be curious what more parents say (hoping that more would chime in was why I posted this in the first place) and it certainly is easy for me to say that I wouldn't mind what my children listen to because I don't have any.

I do think, building on Shrie's point, was that they could have done some research and found that this camp was influenced by riot grrrl bands and what they were about. I was mostly upset with how the local media in Portland (and it wasn't just Fox) treated this issue and just through together a few out of context lyrics from a band that a lot of people consider very influential.

I'm not sure if this is applicable here, but when my cousin (who's the same age as me) and I were kids, my aunt practiced protective some parenting. After reading some article in the local newspaper, she freaked and made my cousin get rid of his "offensive music" (which, if memory serves consisted of his Prince and Guns and Roses cds). I don't know how I negotiated this, but the cds in question made their way to me (or clandestinely passed to me through a sharp underground railroad!).

The interesting 'where are they now' part of the story is that the cousin in question has since become an ordained minister and now basically condemns his mom for not being religious enough. How's that for thanks for the pious 'protection'?

Meanwhile, I still haven't figured out if there's been any negative effects on me for singing along to "Welcome to the Jungle," "Like a Virgin" and "Darling Nikki" as a kid besides some regrettable karaoke nights.

Pffft, Chris, good points all around. As I read the story, what I thought was parental responsibility, which includes knowing what the camp is about. I don't think that I would automatically associate "Rock Camp for Girls" with offensive punk, but some advance work on the curriculum would certainly be in order for a parent. From pffft's questions, there appears to be a lot missing from the news stories.

I am a parent to a daughter, and I would be thrilled if she discovered Bikini Kill at Rock Camp one day. Hannah Montana can suck it.

Beautifully put, Dana. You rock mom, you.
IGshr*e

That Fox affiliate practiced some incredibly shoddy, context-stripping journalism and should be punished, personally, by Kathleen Hannah as the ghost of Edward R. Murrow cheers her on. But ... I think that the mother of the 8-year-old girl has every right to be angry that her daughter was exposed to such powerful images and words seemingly without explicit warning (and, no, the fact that it is a "Rock Camp" does not imply mentions of wife beating and racism, no matter what the context).

The problem I have is that the woman did not even contact the Rock Camp to ask for an explanation before calling her local Fox affiliate (and I was told by KRS that Fox did get the scoop on this). That's just sad. The fact that a mother is willing to send her child into the care of another adult that the mother has done little research on, but is unable to simply talk to that adult when she feels the proper care was not given is a symptom of a reactionary society that is ruled by fear. And, as usual, Fox is there to capitalize on that fear.

Blech! Talk to each other people! We can work it out.

Imaginarydana, your vote for others such as Rock Camp to decide what's best for your child is noted. Hopefully, you will always agree with their choices.

Mark B., I agree on both the apparent lack diligence on the part of the mother and then her run to the media rather than the school. And, of course, I certainly do not read "Rock Camp" and automatically think, "offensive materials included." Somehow, I doubt that the school would market itself that way (btw, their website does not give any clues of the materials, but I suspect their lawyers will change that soon).

Is it too much to ask for disclosure so that parents can decide? Can we at least admit that the reflexive, "What's the big deal?" view only works if we always agree with everyone else's choices for our children, or at the very least, have no qualms at all about the materials to which our 8-year-olds are exposed?

I can say I was definitely NOT just listening to "little" kid songs when I was eight. Hello, Nirvana? (Okay, it was 1994!)

And what year are we in now? A cassette tape was sent home?! Did she even have a player for that ;)
/end elle's pointless contribution to this debate.

Yet another humble yet strangely media-hungry parent who wanted to break the latest parenting scandal. If you have a problem with the way your child's camp is run, why in the world would you go to the media instead of the camp director?

Also, where's the unbiased reporting here? Since the conservative slant has already been covered, here's mine: "Yet Another Mom Offended by Rock & Roll: Mom thinks offensive words are inappropriate, no matter what the context"

This news is as old as the rock genre. My mom had the exact same reaction to my music in the 90s, but nobody wrote an article about her views. Why? Because it's old hat. Moms never want to think their kids are ready to deal with the real world. Eight years old is old enough to learn that racism and beating your wife is bad (the context of the lyrics).

Side note: I think it's awesome how conservatives get pissed off when bible verses are taken out of context, but it's okay for them to do the same thing with song lyrics. Or, at least, it's news-worthy when it's song lyrics.

The news has gotten weaker and more thoughtless as we grow deeper into the 2000s. I'm soooo excited I'm about to be graduating with a Journalism degree! It's a shame all the good that comes out of that camp, and what the news decides to focus on. We're obsessed with a negative, sensationalized, pro-tragedy news broadcasts and it's because that what we've learned is all to expect. So are we to blame for consuming it, or are they to blame for feeding it to us? I say shame on us both.

Regardless. The story surrounding this camp, the counselors' importance to the camp and their importance to female-fronted rock is enough juicy material for a full feature. I guess it was just easier to have an angry parent come to you than take two seconds to send a reporter to cover the camp for a few days.

Convenience and shock value fuels the news. Sorry if I'm getting cliche' or political or liberal. It's certainly frustrating to see this stuff happen so much, local news, heck even cable news, isn't worth watching. Am I the only who thinks CNN has lost it, too?

@Rock Parent @14 -- to clarify: As a parent, I fear the evils of lowest common denominator mainstream music (like Hannah Montana) impacting my daughter's self-esteem and ability to think for herself waaaaaaaay more than I fear her finding music that might have some bad words or discuss potentially inflammatory topics.

Of course I don't sanction any group, Rock Camp or otherwise, to decide what's best for my daughter. But I also don't have the illusion that I can control every song/book/image she's exposed to. In this situation, if I did find the music offensive, I would hope that my girl and I would actually TALK about the music (what she likes/doesn't like about it, how others might react to it, etc). Running to a news station --especially a creepy FOX station -- wouldn't be in my top 20 potential good parental actions to take. Thanks to @Deb and @Jon and @Mark's comments above for really good feedback on the FOXy topic.

But then again, I'm a rock and roll mama. My daughter will probably beg for whatever is the Hannah Montana of her moment, precisely because I won't like it. I'm preparing myself already (and she's not even seven months old yet). Such is the nature of music and kids and parents -- for at least a few years, it's about differentiation. But I'm hopeful that while she's young, her papa and I can instill her with some good musical values and tastes.

I stand by my original statement: I'd be thrilled if one day my daughter returns from Rock Camp with a Bikini Kill cassette. Especially if she can play the chords (or the rhythm). Rock on, girls.

as mother to a six-year old girl obsessed with miley cyrus, the most important thing is communication. you can't control MOST of what your children are exposed to these days. i certainly didn't welcome miley cyrus into my home - we're an elvis costello, long winters blasting from kitchen radio kind of family. things come at kids from school, play dates with friends, ads at the beginning of their harmless educational DVDs, strangers sitting on the bus (guy in the red knit hat, i have you to thank for a very LONG discussion of why "suck me" is not something we say ever, to anyone).

to be a good parent is to recognize all of the things against which you're unable to shelter your child (miley cyrus being an especially painful example for me - might be bikini kill for someone else) and to be prepared to discuss, discuss, discuss - when they're five, or ten, or in their teens. talk about the words, the ideas, the context, the rockin' parts and the not so rockin' aspects.

so, yeah. yay bikini kill, boo to mom for not figuring out a more mature way of grappling with a timeless parental dilemma.

I too would be thrilled if my child, at any age, returned from camp, school, encounter with strangers, etc. with material that I liked and with which I sympathized. That seems like a fairly noncontroversial position. I also admit that this position would be easy to sustain if the child in question were less than seven months old.

The issue and my commentary, however, were focused on the opposite with respect to the materials, namely materials that the parent dislikes or deems offensive.

In any event, I certainly appreciate everyone's thoughts on my comments and appreciate that at least in this discussion, my "parents should decide" position is the outlier.

@rock parent: i certainly don't disagree with your "parents should decide" stance, and i think it's not even the outlying position here. igdana would be down with rock camp's curriculum because, hi, she's igdana. she might not be down with fundamentalist bible camp, though, and it would be her responsibility to do some investigating before sending her young'un to "Happy Right-Wing Propaganda Fun Camp", not her place to get upset afterwards when a tape of jerry falwell is sent home. a place like rock 'n roll camp wouldn't exist if beforehand it had parents caucus about the proposed curriculum. it has its curriculum, and PARENTS DECIDE whether that's an appropriate place for their kids.

In terms of Miley Cyrus, isn't it the news media's fault for tainting her image. If it was any other teen girl parading around in her underwear, people would probably just say she's a little on the sleazy side and take it with a grain of salt. Those photos of her leaked online because someone hacked her iPhone and put them there. Then the news and gossip sites went wild. Sure she needs to stay a role model, and maybe shouldn't do these things at all, but if it wasn't for people freaking out over it, it wouldn't be in the news or in word of mouth; in turn, kids wouldn't even know about that side of her. I'm not trying to defend her, I'm just saying someone that could've been a decent role model via her TV show character turned into a shitty one via her private life which was ultimately invaded. Is that entirely fair?

anyone in as much of the public eye as she is is bound to have their private life invaded and the worst things about them revealed. such is the life of a star, and the media. bleh.
IGshr*e

I don't object to HM because Miley Cyrus had photos of her in her undies displayed worldwide. I just object to craptacular, heavily-marketed-to-kids-and-tweens Disney music.

I also object to the word "tween." Tween is for people who are too lazy to say adolescent.

I think the funniest part of Miley's music is the title track of her latest album is a Katy Perry cover.

The knee-jerk siding w/ the camp is astounding.

The Bikini Kill tape was part of a welcome package for the girls. Nowhere on the camp's website did they advertise that this was part of their curriculum or what the lyrical content was.

A lot of these parents aren't as cool as you guys; they shouldn't be faulted for not knowing their NW grrrl history. They just thought it would be a cool thing to do for their daughters. You can say that they should have done research on the instructors and their respective bands, but to me it would be unreasonable to think that just because someone was in The Need that they would be teaching Tribe 8 lyrics (not saying that happened, just an example).

The camp administrators should have had enough sense to tell parents up front what sort of stuff their kids would be exposed to. Especially in the case of the younger kids.

Not every parent is comfortable w/ their 8 yr old kid singing "Suck My Left One". If you're too cool to understand that, well, I'm sorry.

For what it's worth: I'm a parent of a 4 yr old and I was a Bikini Kill fan back in 94-96 and still listen to the records occasionally. Also, looking back: that first ep wasn't that great. Reject All American and the last 2 45s were a lot better.

Giving out a Bikini Kill tape as part of the welcome package was a stupid decision by the camp, who should've notified parents about the things their kids would be exposed to.

But - the parent should have first brought it up with the camp's organizers, NOT run immediately to FOX News.

Also, the kid whose parents object most strenuously to Bikini Kill is the one who needs Bikini Kill the most. In theory, it's nice to say parents should control what their kids read, hear, watch, etc. But often, this hurts kids, since it keeps them from things they need to hear (i.e., gay people are not evil, it's not ok for daddy to beat mommy, etc.)

I'd have no problem sending my kids to the camp - having the expectation that: 1) They'd probably be exposed to some explicit lyrics either through other campers or counselors; and 2) I might have some explaining or parenting to do when they got back. Like how in some forms of art, heavy language is used to drive home a point or express an idea or feeling.

However, I'm more open minded than some of my friends who have kids. They would have freaked had they not done some research or checking around.

My daughter is 8 and would love to have a Hannah Montana CD. She doesn't because we won't buy it and she'd rather use her money for other stuff (thank God for the Nintendo DS). I wasn't thrilled when she came home from her first summer at day camp (age 5) singing Hilary Duff songs, so we talked about it.

When I sent my kid to daycare at 8 months I knew that was the end of my control over what she heard, read or saw. She knows what we think about Disney and Nickelodeon, and she knows why. She knows what music we like, and given her own choice these days will probably play Springsteen or Tom Petty or Indigo Girls (yes, we're old and square) but I know she listens to Hannah Montana with her friends.

I think Bikini Kill lyrics would go over her head right now. I suspect if she thought about them they'd scare her. I could deal with that, if I had to, although I'd as soon now. I agree that the parent had every right to be upset, and that the appropriate ways to deal with her distress would be to talk to her child and to the camp, not to Faux News.

I was a riot grrrl, way back when. Now I'm in my 30s and I teach elementary school. I'd have no problem sending my children to this camp, and in fact I think it's an incredibly powerful, positive thing.

That said, were I a counselor there, I'd not necessarily choose all of Bikini Kill's songs to share with the kiddos. Rebel Girl? Hell, yes. Whiteboy? I'd hesitate. I'm hoping that whoever gave the girls the tape talked to them about the contents. My students are eight-year-olds and, while they are definitely aware of far more sex and violence-related issues than their parents think, there are huge gaps in what they know. Nothing as heavy as Bikini Kill should be presented without dialogue.

A few things:

-Rock n Roll Camp For Girls is an amazing, life changing nonprofit organization, mostly run by volunteers, committed to empowering girls. It's broke, it's not that organized, but it's amazing at what it does.

-On the first day, all the girls get a swag bag. None of them are quite the same, they're pretty much of stuff that gets donated to the camp. The Bikini Kill cassette was not part of any "curriculum." It was thrown in the bag without much thought, which was probably a mistake. The girl didn't have an opportunity to listen to the cassette at the camp, so of course the mom had an opportunity to look at it first, and she did, and she decided it wasn't appropriate for her kid. Seems pretty reasonable.

-A lot of the songs on that tape wouldn't have been played publicly for the girls at camp-- they don't play explicit stuff during morning assembly or anything. The worst I've heard is "Deceptacon" by Le Tigre which has the word "fucking" in it, and it's not even in a sexual sense.