Huh ... Art came a played a Democratic campaign event in 2000 at Oregon State. Maybe old age has made him a good ol' conservative like David Mamet.

Some people can maintain just the right amount of cognitive dissonance to be evangelical Christians and Democrats, Erik - in fact, that fact will be important should we win the White House this year.

And somehow you construed my comments into me saying I think "Democrat" and "Christian" don't intersect in the same Ven diagram. I'm just saying that based on his comments at OSU during the show, I wouldn't have guess he was a God rocker at the time. I, for one, am perfectly happy to have religion and liberalism ...

Yeah, that's what it sounded like (well, not "Democrat" and "Christian," but "Democrat" and "Evangelical Christian"). Sorry if I misinterpreted. According to that gross little video, he's "always been a Christian," though maybe the flavor of it has changed over the years.

It's important to note that this is a charity benefit for a homeless youth ministry called New Horizons Ministry, which states on its website that it is dedicated to "serving youth without regard to religious beliefs, race, color, gender, national origin, sexual orientation or handicap." I'd play at the Republican National Convention if the proceeds got kids off the streets.

It's a ministry. Ministries are there to proselytize and make the churches that back them look good. There are plenty of non-profits that help the homeless and youth without injecting religion into it.

And of course they want to serve youth "without regard to religious beliefs," etc. Without non-Christians and sinful gays to "serve," they'd just be literally preaching to the converted.

Religion is a tricky and often heated topic, especially when it comes to forums and comments.

I've attended Mars Hill a number of times, and they're a pretty liberal, or at least youthful minded church, which may or may not be saying much. Yes, they have some good sermons, but no, I certainly don't agree with some of their stances.

I go to Mars Hill because it's a good blend of a powerful preacher, some hipster appeal, and decently executed praise music (still not a consumer of the stuff). Just because I attend the church doesn't mean I don't make a cognitive choice to disagree. Not all churches fit Christian stereotypes, and neither does Christian individuals.

Unfortunately we're talking about Mars Hill as an entity and not its congregation, and since it finds itself in fairly "conservative" waters from time to time, it's going to be the church as an entity that takes the blame... which in this case is legitimate.

Religious or party affiliations aside, it's cool to see Everclear playing. And isn't what this site is all about? Music?

The one concrete gripe I do have against the band is their pseudo cover of "Brown Eyed Girl".

@7 - I'll just let Mars Hill do the talking (via Lineout). Tattoos and rock music does not mean liberal.

“Women will be saved by going back to that role that God has chosen for them. Ladies, if the hair on the back of your neck stands up it is because you are fighting your role in the scripture.”

“There is no occasion where women led a society and were its heads and the men complied and followed. … It’s a matter of Biblical creation”

“[re: Homosexuality:] Your banners, your floats, your buttons—they’re not good. It’s just like letting cancer come into a body… until the cancer consumes the body and kills you. … We will extricate the cancer, and if that person who has the cancer is repentant and wants to kill the cancer, then we’ll welcome them back. But they have to accept that anything but one man, one woman, one God, one life is sexually immoral.”

“The lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. This is the making of the first human being, our father Adam. We all descend from him and there was no human life before this man.”

To say you none of you have legitimate points would be absurb. As mentioned before, no I don't agree with everything they stand for, and my only hope would be for others who attend, like me, to be able to make personal concious, heartfelt, mindful choices based on personal beliefs versus what a religious entity might stand for. In the end, you always need to think for yourself.

I thank you a ton for the quotes, seriously. It's extremely important to get at as many angles of something as possible to see the 'real' issue as a whole.

I know it's probably not the coolest thing to be a Christian in a rock n' roll subculture, and it's certainly not easy to avoid being stereotyped.

The church has spoken for itself and I as an attendee have spoken for myself. So like my views vs. mars hills, perhaps Everclear shouldn't be written off because of the Church. If Everclear personally stated similar comments as Mars Hill, then I suppose, feel free to do so.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

Why would I hate the beach?

Jon, I think the point Levi is trying to make is that you can be a Christian but find a church you actually agree with. There are plenty of other institutions to choose from that you wouldn't need to be defending why you go despite having vast differences in ideology.
If you don't agree with all the quotes and points Levi and others have provided, which seems like a large chunk of what the church preaches, then why keep going to that particular church? I believe that is the point he is making.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."--Ghandi

I don't get why liberals are so tolerant of Mars Hill. Mark Driscoll preaches the same thing that Jerry Falwell did when he was alive - anti-women, anti-gay, etc... Just because they don't turn people away for having blue hair or nose rings?

Remember when he said that there was a problem with preacher's wives who pack on the weight after marriage and it was leading them into the arms of other men?

Well, Chris, we're trying to get the word out, but as Jon makes clear, not everybody gets it. Tattoos and rock music can hide a lot.

I understand that. Each church has their own interpretation of the same bible, and even when you cut the middleman out (the church) you are still faced with the dilemnas of being one on one with the bible deciding case by case whether you agree or disagree.

For me it's been an 'easier said then done' case in terms of finding a church that reflects my beliefs and needs. Admittedly, it's easy to stay put in a safe place, a place with friends, and a place that still has redeeming qualities despite some views. I've gotten a lot out of the sermons regardless of their background on women or gays or science. They have a lot of good things to teach, but it's when that background bleeds through you need to be careful.

I'm totally glad this has been a mature conversation thus far. I've seen so many out of hand religion-oriented comments going back and forth online where the real message gets lost and it turns into belittlement. That hasn't happened here.

If anyone has any contructive recommendations for church alternatives in the King County area, I'd be grateful.

I'm glad that this didn't turn into religion-bashing. I for one, have heard that Mars Hill is cultish and not at all as liberal as they'd like people to believe. BUT, I have not been to said church.

My problem with religion a lot of the times (and I grew up in a Texas Southern Baptist home) is that often devout Christians are anything but "Christian". It's a sad state of affairs, and gives a bad name to decent practicing Christians. That being said, I do not consider myself religious in any way. Being from that background though I feel the need to defend and explain sometimes.

And I think it's great that Jon is standing up for himself here. Go Jon!

Conversations like this are difficult. So often it seems like we are forced to choose between having a sense of religious community, and having a sense of other community - like music or politics.

I strongly disagree with many things that Mars Hill teaches, but support anyone's right or choice to go there seeking some sense of spirit.

However, I do think there are wonderful alternatives in Seattle - even near Mars Hill. I dated a guy who was active at Church of the Apostles, in Fremont. That right there should tell you something - they welcomed me - a gay jewish guy - with open arms into their community.

I attended several services, including Christmas mass, and can tell you that if ever there was a place that follows the teachings of Christ, as I understand them, to lift up everyone and make all feel welcome, this is the place.

http://www.apostleschurch.org/home.php

There is also Center for Spiritual Living, and oddly, tho I consider myself to be a Pan-Theist ( I think everyone is right), and that aligns with their message, I just didn't fit in there.

If you are looking for a Christian message and a great community, I recommend COTA.

So what if Jesus wants to rock?
Yeah the guy who runs Mars Hill is a terrible neo-con hate monger but I'm guessing Everclear is pretty happy they get to play to a room that will hold more than 50 people at this point in there career. Plus I seriously doubt that the members of the band weighed the pros and cons of Mars Hill’s crazy beliefs when signing up.

Booking Agent: "Hey there's a homeless youth ministry that wants to book us. They'll have 500 people show up"
Everclear: "Sounds good. Make sure the check clears.”

Any publicity is good publicity, especially when you’ve been pretty much out of the public conscious for the last ten years.

In terms of the Everclear-Mars Hill relationship, I think Tim hit the nail on the head.

I'm going, just to keep yelling for HEROIN GIRL!!!!!! WOOT!!!!!!!!!!

That was Everclear, right?

Can I point out "Why I Don't Believe In God" off So Much for the Afterglow?

Tim, watch the video interview in the Lineout post; Art knows exactly what he's getting into.

Who gives a shit? Everclear made one great album, the odd other halfway decent song, and a whoooole lotta crap that sounded like every other one of their songs. You know - dug dug dugga dug Dug - "Yeah-uh" - dug dug dugga dug Dug..etc. Plus they're dreadful live. And it's not even the same band that made "Sparkle and Fade" last time I checked, say about a zillion years ago.

Regardless, it's lame Art and whoever else is doing this. Then again, maybe he's just ahead of his time. Perhaps other also ran 90's alternative bands will play questionable church benefits. I can see it now - Dishwalla raising money for Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church, Our Lady Peace at Trinity United - maybe Marcy Playground could raise money for Benny Hinn, whatever...

I totally forgot about the video interview.

Dana . . . Reading someone's obviously biased opinions with a few select quotes really doesn't do a matter justice. Don't hate someone for what they believe; but how they act upon those beliefs. I am very doubtful that hatred of homosexuals and women is what drives this church, but hatred is what obviously drove you to post this. I don't believe they're are very many complete idiots among humanity, and if one believes there are, I suggest an opening up of the mind and an honest attempt at getting new perspectives. No, I don't go to Mars Hill, but presenting an argument in such a tone greatly detracts from its possible veracity (kind of like a crazy evangelical screaming that homosexuals will burn in hell).

But yeah, as indie rock is what unites this community, the real point is that Everclear pretty much sucks anyway.

Oh, hell, why not hate someone for what they believe? if you're going to hate at all? Usually someone with the opinions of a shithead will end up acting like a shithead. If that person is all about hate themselves, you might as well hate them too.

What's to stop you? The value system they claim to believe in? How twisted.

And you guys have talked me out of going, in spite of my dying need to hear "Heroin Girl" again. I forgot that I hate the band. Who says rock blogs can't persuade minds and influence hearts?

I swear I've heard this conversation before... something about a popular figure who was recently embroiled in a ridiculous scandal over certain comments made by a church he was involved with...

I just got total déjà vu, man. Whoa.

Hahaha.

Man, I was tempted to bring that one up but adding politics into a religion-based conversation might bring hell on earth.

"Usually someone with the opinions of a shithead will end up acting like a shithead."

Sigh . . . you totally missed my point . . . oh well.

@adam -- I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. To paraphrase Willy Wonka, I think beliefs and ideas can and do make a difference.

I'm not a hater. I respect all people to beliefs what they want and live their lives accordingly -- until their views take those same rights away from others. Mars Hill accomplishes this by preaching values that demean my gender, discriminate against my friends, and negate science. Specifically:

• As a female (and the new mother of a daughter), I find Driscoll's views that women are inferior creatures -- meant to breed babies and obey their husbands and not work -- offensive and antiquated.

• As the best friend to a gay male, I find his views on homosexuality not only misguided and wrong but also downright dangerous, esp. with the increasing rates of violence against gay people these days.

• As an intellectual, I find his views on evolution/hell/etc just ludicrous.

It breaks my heart to see our country in the grasp of an anti-intellectual, discriminatory backlash brought on by the rise of so-called compassionate Christian Conservativism. And to see it burgeoning in the heart of my nice liberal town -- cleverly masked by some skilled marketing people to appeal to urban tattoo rocker sorts -- is insidious.

True, what I supplied above are just "select quotes," as you said... but they summarize everything I know to be true about what Mark Driscoll preaches to his congregation at Mars Hill. If you or Jon or anyone else has evidence that those statements are not representative, I'm all ears.

{You can also click through to the Stranger site to get loads more specifics, if you want to read more. Or just Google.}

PS ~ My pal Ariel wrote a great blog post after attending a Mars Hill sermon -- also well worth the read if you want more details.

Oh yah -- I forgot to add -- Everclear does suck. ;)

And Jon -- I hope you find a great church. I've also heard great things about COTA... mind you, I've mostly heard them from Lawrence. But it does sound like a fantastic place.